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friscosardines



Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 6
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Pre-flop question

'm curious to know what cards people here are willing to call with pre-flop.

What if someone raises? Then what?

I've been taught to play very tight and only call pre-flop with 2 face cards. I'll call on a raise if I'm suited or have an Ace with the face card.

I'll also call if I have an Ace with a low (non face card kicker) if it's suited.

I'll also call if I'm paired down, even if it's 2's or 3's... just to see the flop and see if I hit trips.

Just looking for opinions on if this is too tight, not tight enough, or just right.
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jhasper



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 12
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject:

It depends, but what you are describing isn't really that tight. Playing suited cards for a raise is not always a very good call, especially if there are few people in the pot. What you have to understand about suited connectors is that they have high implied odds, meaning your hand is very strong if you hit your hand, and you have a higher expectation to get paid off more, but if you don't hit, your hand is usually no good. So if you play a suited connector hand, in a ring game, it is usually to your advantage to have many people in the pot. Against one or two opponents, a suited connector is no good.
Same thing with Ax suited. If someone raises, and you consider them a decent player, who will raise with a strong hand, this is a terrible call. Because what can you beat? You might have to assume that the raiser has a bigger Ace, or maybe they have a big pocket pair, in which case you only have 3 outs. So technically you are only playing the flush draw or hoping to flop two pair maybe or a set of your kicker. If there are many callers in the pot, and your ace and other card are suited and might have some kind of possible straight draw, then maybe you could call a raise, but otherwise, it is usually not a strong play to call with an ace with small kicker.
You seem to be dramatically overestimating suited cards. Your chances of getting a flush are small, so having your cards suited does not improve your hand enough to justify a call in many cases.
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teddyfist



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 7
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject:

This is a pretty tough question primarily because what makes a calling hand is a dynamic variable that changes depending on position, opponents and what the opponents are doing.
What your dad told you is generally true and a good starting point for a beginning player. As you get more advanced you will learn what hands work will in particulars situations. You will also find that the choice you make pre-flop is raise or fold much more often then call. Excellent players make very few calls pre-flop.
There are hand tables that list starting poker hands by their relative strength, but these while good, are slightly misleading. The strength of your starting hands depends on how you start with it as much as the hand itself. The hand ranks imply that if you only play a certain quality of hand that you will over the long run win more money then players who play looser. This is an over simplification of the game and an inherently flawed way to play.
The hands you start with and the way you play them determine everything at a poker table. Player A for example who is a very tight aggressive player is going to do much better with a totally absurd hand like 7-2 off when he comes in shooting then player B who is a loose aggressive player raising with any two cards. By the same token player B is going to do much better with A-A then player A. This phenomenon tends to askew any starting table of hands.
If your personality is passive you should tend to tighten way down on the hands you are willing to call with. If you are an aggressive player your starting requirements can loosen up a bit. If you are a really good player starting tables are almost meaningless. Or in other words for a good player what is happening at the table on both a strategic and tactical level has a lot more meaning then what the starting table dictates.
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ThomasR



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 51
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:46 am    Post subject:

I will call, possibly even to a raise pre-flop, with a pocket pair (even a low pocket pair) or sometimes two suited cards.

I will never call without the above, even my bluffs are as a result of starting out with one of the above hands. The only other time I'm in on the flop with less is if it's cost me nothing to see it.
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